The first pond I had was a garden pond, about 12'x6' made of brick and lined with concrete. It came with the house. It worked well for so small a pond, and the fishes and frogs and plants liked it. I wonder if any of you have suggestions for concrete. There are a multitude of types and additives. However, I would like to know exactly what type is recommended for lining a pond. And what additives to avoid. Michael New Orleans, Louisiana USA fermanis@REMOVEsprynet.com ================================================================

Gunite or shotcrete. "MLF" <fermanis@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:feqho0$hmh$1@news.datemas.de... > > The first pond I had was a garden pond, about 12'x6' made of brick and > lined with concrete. It came with the house. It worked well for so small a > pond, and the fishes and frogs and plants liked it. > > I wonder if any of you have suggestions for concrete. There are a > multitude of types and additives. However, I would like to know exactly > what type is recommended for lining a pond. And what additives to avoid. > > > Michael > New Orleans, Louisiana USA fermanis@REMOVEsprynet.com > ================================================================ >

> "MLF" <fermanis@sprynet.com> wrote in message >> I wonder if any of you have suggestions for concrete. There are a >> multitude of types and additives. However, I would like to know exactly >> what type is recommended for lining a pond. And what additives to avoid. "Pat" <dancing@onlinemac.removecom> wrote > Gunite or shotcrete. I thought of that. However, the soil here New Orleans is entirely silt - no rocks, pebbles, or subsoil of any sort. Silt down to about 500 feet. Building on it is a challenge. The city sewerage workers refer to the ground conditions more than a meter down as "puddin". Swimming pools are rare, a surprising situation in a warm climate like this, probably because of the poor soil conditions. Most pools are gunite/shotcrete with a plastic liner and most all have settling problems (no surprise). Any of any size are built on dozens of pilings driven into the ground - a very expensive proposition. I'm beginning to think that only relatively shallow ponds are practical here. I had one that was 2.5 feet and it had settled (over 50 years) about 2 inches. I'm guessing that anything will sink unless some really large oversized concrete pad is used at the bottom. My particular question was concerning the type of concrete. I don't want to poison the fishes, and I don't want to use a liner, so the components of the concrete are very important. Gunite and/or shotcrete may be suitable, but I'd like to hear that from someone who actually has a concrete pond like that with fishies. Michael New Orleans, Louisiana USA fermanis@REMOVEsprynet.com ================================================================

> > My particular question was concerning the type of concrete. I don't want > to poison the fishes, and I don't want to use a liner, so the components > of the concrete are very important. Gunite and/or shotcrete may be > suitable, but I'd like to hear that from someone who actually has a > concrete pond like that with fishies. > > New concrete turns the water alkaline. Let it age before use. Or roll on a coat of asphalt emulsion.

In article <13h2vn2pbdpi05c@corp.supernews.com>, "Pat" <dancing@onlinemac.removecom> wrote: > New concrete turns the water alkaline. Let it age before use. Or roll on a > coat of asphalt emulsion. Asphalt emulsion is can suffocate fish until it completely cures. The MSDS for asphalt emulsion is at: http://www.neyra.com/MSDSjena.htm It says: When spilled in waters containing fish, material will suffocate fish until it settles on bottom. Most fish hatchery ponds are lined with hot-mix asphalt. Then this is sealed with asphalt emulsion because a bacteria detrimental to fish life can find a habitat in the surface voids of the hot-mix asphalt. The Asphalt Institutes specifies using a CSS-1 or a CS-1h asphalt emulsion. http://www.asphaltinstitute.org/Upload/OR_WA_Fish_Hatcheries_Lined_With_A sphalt.pdf -- Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to rhodyman@earthlink.net 18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6 Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

Jan: That sounds like good advice. Certainly the alkaline in the concrete would be neutralized by the acid if used repeatedly and is allowed to sink into the concrete. Michael New Orleans, Louisiana USA fermanis@REMOVEsprynet.com ================================================================ "~ jan" <Seewebsite@jjspond.us> wrote in message news:kcq4h3hvn5l9uigt0h6v95tvcionup54ta@4ax.com... > Local ponder here did his pond in concrete, similar to Jim, I think it was > 4" thick. I remember them using muratic acid soaks, 1 gallon/1000 gallon > water. Seems you want to keep it acidic for at least a week, by adding > more > acid as needed, drain, rinse, fill, wait, and test pH. If 7.5 or less > after > a week or so, I'd think you'd be good to go. ~ jan > ------------ > Zone 7a, SE Washington State > Ponds: www.jjspond.us >

Concrete, whether truck mixed or gunnite/shotcrete is made of Portland Cement, sand, water, coarse aggregate (gravel or crushed stone) and admixtures. The sand, water and coarse aggregates should not pose any problems. Most of the admixtures are used in such small quantities and are bound in the concrete, so I don't see a problem with them, either. I will cover some admixes that you might want to use later. When Portland Cement hydrates (reacts with water) it produces the calcium silicate hydrate gel which is the stuff that makes the concrete stong and water tight. It also produces as by-products heat which can lead to expansion and then on cooling contraction that will cause cracking, and it produces calcium hydroxide. The calcium hydroxide is in the form of pore water, which comes to the surface, the pH of which is about 13. In air, the calcium hydroxide solution reacts with carbon dioxide to form calcium carbonate which is essentially just limestone, neutral pH. The calcium carbonate blocks the pores making the concrete both stronger at the surface and more watertight. It takes time exposed to air to get the carbonation layer formed. With the high water table in NO, I don,t think it would be possible to keep an empty concrete pond to allow the drying, since they make ships of concrete. The longer concrete cures the strionger and more watertight the concrete becomes. Curing requires a reasonable temperature, which you have, and a constant supply of moisture. So as soon as the pond has been poured, keep the concrete moist for a few days and then fill it with water. Water is the best and worst thing for concrete. During mixing and placement the less water the concrete has, the stronger and more water tight the concrete. Some of the mix water will leave the concrete through what is referred to as bleeding, where the solids settle and the water flows to the surface, leaving pores that are an avenue for water and chemicals to get back into the concrete and cause problems. The concrete will set up before all this mix water can leave, so some of it is just spreading the solid ingredients out and not providing any strength in the end. After placement, the concrete should not be allowed to dry, since the hydration reaction requires water and this reaction, suipposedly goes on forever. So the longer the concrete can be protected from drying the better. The concrete ponds that I have seen that do not have some form of waterproofing membrane painted on are usually allowed to sit for a year before any fish can go in, doing acid additions, water changes, and pH monitoring to see when the pH stabilizes at a safe level. The leaching of the calcium hydroxide will continue for a long time, but will decrease in rate, so the pond water will finally stabilize. As far as admixtures, there are 3 or 4 that you might want or need. Air entraining admixture is a must in northern climates to provide freeze thaw protection to concrete, but it also provides some improvement in the watertightness of concrete. Set retarder slows the initial harding of the concrete to provide a little extra time place and finish the concrete, and the warmer the concrete the faster it sets, so this one I think would be a must. Set retarders will usually allow for less water in the mixture. Water reducers, especially super water reducers, will allow the flow of the concrete to be much higher with the use of less water or for the same flow, reduce the water significantly. Now you can also get plastic fibers mixed with the concrete that will help to reduce any cracking by providing some small scale reinforcement of the surfaces, don't use it to replace the real steel reinforcement. Sorry for the length of the dissertation, but I felt a complete answer required this. Hope it helps. -- RichToyBox http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html Zone 7A/B Virginia "MLF" <fermanis@sprynet.com> wrote in message news:feqho0$hmh$1@news.datemas.de... > > The first pond I had was a garden pond, about 12'x6' made of brick and > lined with concrete. It came with the house. It worked well for so small a > pond, and the fishes and frogs and plants liked it. > > I wonder if any of you have suggestions for concrete. There are a > multitude of types and additives. However, I would like to know exactly > what type is recommended for lining a pond. And what additives to avoid. > > > Michael > New Orleans, Louisiana USA fermanis@REMOVEsprynet.com > ================================================================ >

In article <C38C3791.3DCC1%joe@bizqwick.com>, San Diego Joe <joe@bizqwick.com> wrote: > "Chip" wrote: > > > RichToyBox wrote: > >> Concrete, whether truck mixed or gunnite/shotcrete is made of Portland > >> Cement, sand, water, coarse aggregate (gravel or crushed stone) and > >> admixtures. The sand, water and coarse aggregates should not pose any > >> problems. Most of the admixtures are used in such small quantities and are > >> bound in the concrete, so I don't see a problem with them, either. > >> > > You seem quite knowledgeable about concrete, so if you'll allow me I > > have a couple of questions. > > > > I have a plastered Shotcrete diving pool built in '87. Planning to > > convert it to a swimming pond with fish. Plan to raise the 8.5' deep > > end to 4' with dirt overpoured with concrete. > > > > 1) Do I need to take off the plaster around the sides, so the new > > concrete floor edges mate with the old Shotcrete? > > > > 2) Will I need to tie in the floor re-bar to the old wall's re-bar or > > even use re-bar in the new floor at all. > > > > 3) For fish, do I need to coat the old plaster and new concrete floor > > with Epoxy or will normal pool paint do? > > > > Chip > > > > Hi Chip, > > Just my 2 cents worth, but instead of doing more concrete work, why not fill > with sand or dirt to the contour you want. Then use regular pond liner. That > way, if you ever want to convert back to a pool you can. > I agree, the liner is such a better way to go. -- To reply by email, remove the word "space"

http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html Zone 7A/B Virginia "Chip" <chip.wood@ieee.org> wrote in message news:fk6jjt$m3j$1@aioe.org... > RichToyBox wrote: >> Concrete, whether truck mixed or gunnite/shotcrete is made of Portland >> Cement, sand, water, coarse aggregate (gravel or crushed stone) and >> admixtures. The sand, water and coarse aggregates should not pose any >> problems. Most of the admixtures are used in such small quantities and >> are bound in the concrete, so I don't see a problem with them, either. > You seem quite knowledgeable about concrete, so if you'll allow me I have > a couple of questions. > > I have a plastered Shotcrete diving pool built in '87. Planning to > convert it to a swimming pond with fish. Plan to raise the 8.5' deep end > to 4' with dirt overpoured with concrete. > > 1) Do I need to take off the plaster around the sides, so the new concrete > floor edges mate with the old Shotcrete? > > 2) Will I need to tie in the floor re-bar to the old wall's re-bar or even > use re-bar in the new floor at all. > > 3) For fish, do I need to coat the old plaster and new concrete floor with > Epoxy or will normal pool paint do? > > Chip > I would use a good clean sand or gravel for the fill. Dirt settles, even if compacted fairly well. If you use sand, fill the sanded bottom with water to a height above the sand to break the water tension that allows us to make sand castles, and the sand should become very well compacted. I would remove the plaster from the sides and slightly roughen the concrete, then use an acrylic bonding agent to get the concrete to bond as well as possible. The sloped bottom will need more concrete removed where the new floor ties into the old floor, since the minimum thickness of concrete should be 2 of the concrete rock thicknesses and 3 is better. The reinforcement is needed to prevent what would be called temperature cracks from being large. All concrete shrinks. With low water to cement ratios and continuous moist curing, the shrinkage is reduced. This reduction in shrinkage may be sufficient to prevent any cracking, and the use of rebar will distribute the shrinkage tension throughout the concrete to further reduce chances of cracks. The rebar does need to be tied into the walls and floor, though not tied to the existing steel. Drill holes into the existing concrete to obtain bond. I would drill the holes at different angles giving a chinese handcuff type friction, rather than making them parallel to each other. The reinforcement of the floor could be done with wire mesh reinforcement. Slab thickness should be 6 to 8 inches thick. A proper bottom drain with 4" pipe should be installed prior to concrete, so pipe friction will be minimized from bottom drain to pump. As for a coating, the ones that I am seeing used on other pond construction are rubberized urethane type mixtures, similar to the spray on truck bed liners. I wouldn't think an epoxy would be needed, except as a crack repair material. The regular pool paint should be designed to work with concrete and would be adequate. -- RichToyBox